How much power makes a Scirocco undriveable?

[big nick]

So I'm looking at something outrageous like a 16v G60, a 16vt, a 20vt, a G60turbo, or something equally silly ;) :D

However I don't want to make it undriveable, or a 'straight line only' car.. I have a wavetrac diff in the gearbox I'll be using which should help me put some of the power down but a Mk2 rocco is still a very lightweight car and I'm concerned that I'll end up with something that doesn't want to go round corners, that spins both front wheels when trying to overtake on the motorway etc..

I want it to be fast enough to be fun and put a smile on my face, but not so stupidly ferocious that it's no longer driveable
( I was reading a thread on E38 about a guy who had a 280bhp 20vt in a Mk1 rocco and he said it absolutely ruined the car, made it horribly impractical to drive, only capable of accelerating in a straight line etc)

So can anybody tell me, from their own personal experience, how much power a Mk2 Rocco is capable of dealing with? What power engine did YOU use and how was it to drive? Would you do the same transplant again? What would you do differnelty?

Any feedback on this would be VERY helpful :thumbup:

Cheers guys!

[filmidget]

150bhp of KR is entertaining at first but soon starts feeling a little pedestrian...

[mr.brown]

Having had some "reasonably" powered Sciroccos I think a lot of depends on the type of engine and the transmission.

ABF with 16v (2Y) box - conservative 150bhp estimate - great to drive, very smooth power band and no unintentional wheelspin.

(Race) 2.0 8v on twin carbs with 2Y box+Quaife - again 150bhp-ish - power on this car was very "on/off" due to various factors - very difficult to drive for long distances but really easy to put all the power down - example (timed) 0-60 in a mk2 in 6.6 seconds - in torrential rain and standing water on road tyres.

G60 with 2Y box - conservative 170bhp - absolute nightmare - 1st gear unusable - wheelspin in 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Great for very high speed driving but not much else.

For me, the next engine conversion(s) will be naturally aspirated, with a fresh 2Y box and with a target of 150-180bhp.

[the edmundator]

The other thing to consider, as well as power, is the weight of the engine. A VR6, for example, is too heavy and will totally ruin the car's handling round corners - although in a straight line you'd be fine.

I say this having watched a 1.8 8v carb, race-tuned, totally annihilate a VR6-engined Golf in the twisty bits at Silverstone, only to have the Golf disappear into the distance on the straights.

I'd be looking to keep the weight in the engine bay fairly similar to what you have in a standard Scirocco.

[big nick]

I've been thinking abouut all the various factors around engine swaps today, decided that anything running forced induction, or fuel injjection, is both too far away from what the car was originally, and would take a good couple of weeks to get the loom, plumbing, mapping etc. sorted, so thats that idea out the window.

Then I remembered that VW themselves produced a 16v Mk2 so there's no reason why I can't either but at the same time they didn't see fit to use Kjet so neither will I.. I'm 99% settled on a carb'd ABF with a 4 branch mani, running on standard KR ignition (which is coil, dizzy, ignition amplifier and loom, right?) because it'll look at home in the bay, and the only wiring & plumbing I'll need to do is the fuel pump & pressure regulator, engine loom and a couple of radiator hoses.. What I'm wondering is if it would be worth doing cams, headwork, lightening the fly etc at this stage, or if I should just get it it and running to get used to the way it drives and worry about internal engine mods as and when I feel the need to go a bit quicker?

Cheers,

[GTXTRA]

the original gti tech man Brian Ricketts used to say that 180 bhp was all the chassis could take without trick diffs etc etc - hence his BRM180 2-LITRE 16v conversion back in the day was as far as he's take things on an A1 chassis car.

with ed re the vr6 thing totally - buy a corrado instead.


your proposed 2 litre/carbed/16v sounds like a good starting point nick re the cl - that or a mk1 g40 are the two alternative engine ideas i've always thought would be 'nice' to do if i lost and engine on any of the cars.

[Tim_R]

I'm not trying to dissuade you from carb's here, but are you intending to used the car daily? Fuel economy might become a factor plus having to get the carbs jetted correctly in the first place to suit the engine. Don't discount using the replacement engines fuel injection and ignition systems, it'll be setup to provide decent economy and performance and a cheapy vag-com lead will give you fault finding diagnostics. The ABF also doesn't run particularly high fuel pressures unlike K-jet which could make life much simpler.

I'm using mine as a daily for a 40 mile round trip to work and back and getting anything between 29 to 36 mpg, thats a mix of fast lanes, A roads and crawling in traffic. It's a KR cammed 9A running on it's original Corrado injection and ignition system. When I had it properly setup on a rolling road it finally produced 129bhp at the wheels and a much better spread of torque, it'll happily start midwinter when it was well below freezing, idles perfectly, drives around town comfortably and starts easily again when hot. Something it never did as a weber carb'd 1.8 8v.

[big nick]

I was only ever going to use a 4pot, VR6s belong in rounded, modern cars that look like teletubbies, not in sexy, swoopy Sciroccos!

If Brian Ricketts said 180 was enough then who am I to argue?! To be fair, I do have a diff'd box but 180 seems to be achievable AND reliable and at 850kg it's probably enough too! A 'valver on carbs' might be a bit old hat but my car is a bit old hat, its 30 this year, no power steering/central locking/ABS so I want to go with something period correct and fairly fast.
Fuel economy won't really be a factor with this car because I don't use it daily and there is a well known rolling road and carb tuning place just down the road form me so I can get them set up properly and the MPG should only go down to single figures if I'm really giving it the beans (which I don't like to do very often for my own and others safety, my license, the risk of crashing my baby etc)

I'm putting a shopping list together, it goes like this

Engine
big end bearings
main bearings
cam bearings
head gasket
sump gasket
cam cover gasket
Clutch
Carbs
inlet mani
fuel pump
f.p.r.
braided fuel line
KR engine loom
Exhaust mani

have I missed anythning essential? the big cams and throttle bodies can wait for a year or two haha!

[ChrisPears]

G60 with 2Y box - conservative 170bhp - absolute nightmare - 1st gear unusable - wheelspin in 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Great for very high speed driving but not much else.

This surprised me, mine is about 200bhp, not sure on which 020 variant gearbox is in it, its just a standard scala box. My experience is totally different, 1st is only good for getting rolling, but all the other gears are entirely useable. The car handles the power well making a great b-road blaster, you just need to keep in mind it will torque steer if provoked enough. Maybe I lucked out and engine/suspension/tyres/my driving style all work together to cancel out any negative effects.

Same transplant again - Definitely
What would I do differently - Wait until I have all the parts I need before tearing the old engine out, and get the manifold ceramic coated.

[lewp91]

when im out of uni, im planning a 1.8t 20v mk1.. with a gt3076r, anyone know the power of one of those?

lew

[Throbbe]

ABF with 16v (2Y) box - conservative 150bhp estimate - great to drive, very smooth power band and no unintentional wheelspin.

This (although Stealth's dyno said 167 iirc, about the same as a few stock VR's on the same day ;) ).

Passengered in a 240bhp 1.8T and that was wheelspinning through the first 3 gears.

[Chaps]

when the 1.8T was in the Rieger it was about running about 280bhp. Even using a mk3 GTI gearbox with a quaife diff fitted the wheels would spin in 2nd in the dry, and in 3rd sometimes in the wet. it was fast like, once it got going but in the lower gears it felt like you were holding onto to the steering wheel for dear life...

I am yet to try the the 9a engine, but think it'll be alot more suited. IMO unless a FWD car is specifically designed for ~200bhp as standard putting anymore through it than that is too much.

[Chaps]

when im out of uni, im planning a 1.8t 20v mk1.. with a gt3076r, anyone know the power of one of those?

lew

In the region of 360bhp i would think. but to go over 300 in a 1.8T though there is quite abit more to it than just whapping a stinking big turbo on it. i.e. uprated CONROD's are a must!! Then bigger injectors, mapping etc etc...

[nye]

I've got a 1.8 20vt in mine with the mk4 02j gearbox, it's on the standard 150bhp map and in my eyes puts the power down really well! Bit of a handful in the rain if pushing it a little, But would deffinately reccomend the conversion!!!

Looking to get it mapped to around 190-220 but think any more than that and you will struggle to enjoy it daily!

[MikeH]

Having had some "reasonably" powered Sciroccos I think a lot of depends on the type of engine and the transmission.

ABF with 16v (2Y) box - conservative 150bhp estimate - great to drive, very smooth power band and no unintentional wheelspin.

(Race) 2.0 8v on twin carbs with 2Y box+Quaife - again 150bhp-ish - power on this car was very "on/off" due to various factors - very difficult to drive for long distances but really easy to put all the power down - example (timed) 0-60 in a mk2 in 6.6 seconds - in torrential rain and standing water on road tyres.

G60 with 2Y box - conservative 170bhp - absolute nightmare - 1st gear unusable - wheelspin in 2nd, 3rd and 4th. Great for very high speed driving but not much else.

For me, the next engine conversion(s) will be naturally aspirated, with a fresh 2Y box and with a target of 150-180bhp.

I've got the very same 2.0 8v lump in my track car, running megasquirt, rather than carbs. It's been rolling roaded (on 'tough love' rollers) at 150bhp - ok it was 149.7, but I'm rounding it up! :D

Once you get around 140-150 bhp the car is still driveable on an open diff, but it's a lot better with the current Quaife diff that's in it... and more importantly, it's a lot quicker! Real performance is about speed out of the corners, and this is always higher with a slipper diff - you can put the power down harder and earlier, and the LSD helps to control the understeer, by dragging the front end round the bend.

Regardless of which engine option you go for, I'd recommend an LSD for any rocco in this sort of power bracket or higher, because it's 'real world' quicker, and probably the best performance mod you can add. Unfortunately it doesn't give you sexy numbers to talk about, but that's only for down the pub. Well worth the money!

... or actually, it does give you pub numbers, if you're talking lap times!