Mk1 not starting

[Phil]

My Mk1 seems to be determined to get itself sold at the moment, I solve one thing and another crops up straight away :(

Went out for a run today and just as I pulled onto the drive it stalled and wouldn't restart. I've had issues with hot starting when left for a while before but it now won't start at all and it's never just stopped like this. I just left it when I got home originally cus I was so peed off with it.

Anyway the fuel pump isn't priming at all on ignition or when cranking, you can hear the relay click but no whirring from the pump. I read somewhere about bridging the relay on the fuse board, I have the early fuse box and wondered if this is ok to do? The other thing I wondered is would the relay just fail like this or am I more likely to be looking at a pump problem?

Cheers
Phil

[mark1gls]

Is it a genuine VW relay, if not the cheapo ones do seem to break easy so take the top off and look for any broken wires or lose connections.
You can get a bit of thickish wire and bridge across the 2 bigger connections where the fuel pump relay fits but this makes the fuel pump run even without the ignition on and better way but might not be the same for an early fuse box is take out the relay below (No.18) turn it upside down (so it will then fit) and and put that where the fuel pump relay fits and that should make the fuel pump run with the ignition on even if the engine is not running.
Does your car have a lift pump in the fuel tank and how much petrol is in the tank when it cut out?

[jimmy h]

My Mk1 seems to be determined to get itself sold at the moment, I solve one thing and another crops up straight away :(

Went out for a run today and just as I pulled onto the drive it stalled and wouldn't restart. I've had issues with hot starting when left for a while before but it now won't start at all and it's never just stopped like this. I just left it when I got home originally cus I was so peed off with it.

Anyway the fuel pump isn't priming at all on ignition or when cranking, you can hear the relay click but no whirring from the pump. I read somewhere about bridging the relay on the fuse board, I have the early fuse box and wondered if this is ok to do? The other thing I wondered is would the relay just fail like this or am I more likely to be looking at a pump problem?

Cheers
Phil

Mine did this after I'd had all the bodywork done and was putting it all back together with crazy quiff pump and fuel lines (sucked a bit of crap out of the tank and jammed the fuel pump. I could only free it by reversing the polarity to the pump and run it the other way, the piece of debris was minute.
As Mark says, rule out the relay by making a jumper wire between the big terminals to try and get the pump going, it should run the pump and you should be able to start it, keep in mind the pump will run all the time until you take out the jumper link - so be carefull!

If no joy with that make sure you are getting 12 V to the pump, and consider if the pump has failed or jammed like mine did.

[Phil]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Mine doesn't have the lift pump in the tank and has between half and a quarter of a tank in it. Strange thing was I nipped to the exhaust place to cure a blow on one of the joints and it did about 6 restarts there with no issues at all and was running perfect and has just stopped.

I'll have a proper look tomorrow at the fuseboard, I can't seem to find a layout for the early fuse box at the moment.

[Phil]

Have accessed the fuse box properly today, pics attached:

My relay sits on top with built in fuse, is genuine but is attached via the vw upgrade. Pins all look a similar size though, any ideas which to jump

[Phil]

Ok think I worked it out looks like 87 and 30 need to be jumped

[Phil]

Right have jumped the fuse board where 87 and 30 fit still only turning over.

Disconnected fuel pump, initially had around 5V at terminals for this which quickly jumps to 12v once turning over for a bit so presume this is all good??

Have now connected pump directly to battery and pump doesn't run presume it should run constant?, tried reversing it and got a few short bursts out of it and a few little black bits came out and then it seems to jam - you can feel a jolt from it when you power it up and thats it. So am I right in presuming I have the same issue you had jimmy and my pump is full of stuff and it is now dead?

[jimmy h]

Phil,

Yup, I'd say you are in the right ball park. Pump should run no trouble at all when connected straight to a 12 V battery. There should be no crud coming out of it at all, the tolerances inside that pump will be very fine and tolerate no foreign material. It might be that its now failed due to the crud going through it or jammed more permanently - how old is the pump? Just for noting: my car had about a quarter of a tank of petrol when it did the same, I was convinced it was a new pump that had failed, I rang Crazy Quiffs and they said they never have any issues with the new pumps that they supply, that's what made me wonder if I'd sucked something into it?

You've not got a failing fuel filler neck depositing crud in the tank have you?

[Phil]

Not sure how old the pump is as it came off a donar car, the filler neck is all fine I think it's probably more to do with the fuel tank as it had been out of use in storage for a long long time and needed a hell of a lot of cleaning to be put on the car. I was determined to use it as its the proper early injection tank that differs from later mk1 injection cars but perhaps I may have to look at sacrificing originality for practicality. It's ran for three years so like you say given up because of the crud running through it I expect - explains why the engine just stopped.

Mine has around a qtr of a tank also, the bits that did come out are small black particles. I just remembered that this tank of fuel was Shell v power nitro GSF have pumps in stock so I'll pick one up tomorrow - thanks for all the help so far.

Hope to report a working car soon

I just remembered that this tank of fuel was Shell v power nitro + as a treat, I wonder if the cleaning side of this fuel had any affect

[jimmy h]

Hi again Phil,

Stood and not being used won't help, I hope you get it running again soon. In the 20 years I've had my Storm, my experience of the K Jet set up is that it is bullet-proof and is normally something dead simple that will cause it not to run at all, mine used to eat fuel pump relays and then the plugs on the back of the fuse board until I found out it was a common fault and relocated the relay as yours is - since I've done that its been fine.

On the fuel issue, it's an absolute ball-ache taking the pump off etc, that's why now, even when mines off the road over winter, every other week or so, I keep topping it up with fresh fuel and running the engine static to deplete fuel level - just to keep things moving - even more so with this new ethanol content stuff at the pumps.

I bought some fuel additive a while back (for winter storage) but I don't think I'm going to use it, I think I'll just stick to what I mention above as it seems to work.

[mark1gls]

Is there any kind of filter on the fuel pick up inside the fuel tank?
I've got a late Mk1 golf cabriolet with a lift pump in the tank and that has a filter on the end to stop any bits getting anywhere near the fuel pumps, so might be worth trying to make/get something to stop it happening again if it is the fuel pump?
As jimmy h says the fuel pump should run when connected directly to the battery.

From what I've read on the Mk1 Golf forum it's near impossible to get an early GTi fuel tank with an internal swirl pot as most for sale new are diesel tank with a simpler swirl pot with does not really work very well with petrol so the car will cut out with low petrol in and going fast around a corner which is not ideal!

[Phil]

Mark, Jimmy thanks for all your input on this, I've just fitted the new pump and she now runs perfect :)

I checked inside the tank, the filter looks pretty clean and all the magnets I put in the bottom of the tank when we fitted it to the car are also free of metal particles etc. My only thoughts now are whether to replace the accumulator as this was from the same donar car and I'm imagining it to be full of crap also, what do you guys think? I had a Mk1 gti cabriolet which I bought with a bad running issue and this was down to the filler neck rusting and being replaced by the PO but the system hadn't been cleaned out and bits of the neck were in the accumulator so I'm not sure how effective the tank filters are.

Good idea on the winter storage Jimmy, I'm seriously thinking about keeping mine on the road this year as I always seem to be chasing issues during the summer when I start using it again.

Yes the early tanks are nigh on impossible to get hence my perserverance with this one.

Thanks again to you both

[jimmy h]

Morning Phil,

Glad you got it sorted mate.

Good idea about magnets in the tank - wish I'd thought of that!

The accumulator? I'm a Corrado owner also and a fellow owner told me it (the accumulator) on the K Jet's purpose is to store a gulp of fuel for initial start up.
He said on the Corrado you can run without it, but expect to crank it a few times to build fuel pressure. So if that is the case you may be able to run without it on your car, obviously you'll have to sort the plumbing out to delete it.
Note: please consider this was anecdotal information and I would stress validating it to be sure.

Also, if it ain't broke don't fix it! and if its running now? When I had my issue with this, I expected it to be the first of many - it wasn't! When I sucked the bit of crud through, it must have been the only piece in the tank, and you could be this lucky too - like winning the lottery!

I just do all the prevention stuff as, mechanical things need to be kept working, otherwise, they go wrong, and I hate being soaked in petrol when taking the pump off.