GTX not starting

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Gilb666
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GTX not starting

Post by Gilb666 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:01 pm

Hi folks

The tale of how my car came to this state is long and depressing, but basically i can't get the car to start after re-seating the dizzy cap.

It came out of the garage yesterday after having the tank fuel pump, coil, ignition module and hall sender replaced. When i first went to pick it up, it was running like a bag of spanners, so i left it with them. (took 2 garages to get this far, it only went in for a wheel bearing!!)

They did the timing, and everything seemed fine. Drove it ~1 mile home from the garage without issues.
Then left the car a couple of hours, and decided to go for a drive. Got about 3 fine miles and had a sudden major loss of power. Idle at ~100 rpm, with foot flat to the floor it would slowly go up to 1000, but couldn't move it at more than 1-2mph. Just enough to get out of the junction i was stopped in.
As it was dark, in the middle of the countryside and i had no tools, i had to get recovered back home. I started the car repeatedly during my 2.5 hour wait for the RAC, and it started every time, even though it was running horribly

Went out for a look this afternoon and found the dizzy cap not on straight. Took it off, and the plastic ring thing under the rotor arm was also wonky. The cap was scratched up inside, and the contacts were blackened. I cleaned the contacts as best i could and replaced everything straight, but its not firing up now. I've confirmed spark is getting to the cap.

I will be getting a new cap and arm in the morning, but the fact it wont start at all now everything's lined up has me worried.
Any ideas?


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BlackGTX
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by BlackGTX » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:44 pm

Sounds like tough times. The original issue could be down to fuel pressure. May want to ceck all clamps and hoses are tight from the tank onwards

The dizzy cap could be the wrong one or put on backwards as its seats one way round only, start with the dizzy cap and rotor and see how it sounds

Also read up on thw timing marks and check them as they may not have done it right



mark1gls
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by mark1gls » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:58 pm

Agree with blackGTX, get the new dissy cap and rotor arm fitted, you should be able to get the timing somewhere near by lining up the marks on the cambelt, you should be able to see a arrow on the bottom plastic cover and line up the notch on the crank pully, the rotor arm should then point to the line on the edge of the dissy, if it’s pointing the opposite side you may need to turn the engine over till it’s pointing at the line.
If it’s still not starting then take the top cambelt cover and check the timing mark on that as well.

Check for play in the dissy shaft as well, there should be a little wobble if you grab the dissy shaft but not to much.

You should also oil the little bit of felt on top of the dissy arm, you need to remove the rotor arm to get to the felt. 3in1 oil is good but if not engine oil will do, it only needs to be damp with oil so don’t over do it, a few of drops is enough.


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Gilb666
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by Gilb666 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:26 am

Thanks guys

There was a slight fuel issue, one of the lines on the metering head was loose so it was weeping a bit, but that's tightened up.

I've got the new cap and arm on, but no joy. Struggling with how to get the upper cam belt cover off at the moment. I've got both top nuts off but it's still held by something i can't find. I've got the metal version.
Mark, i'm a bit unclear on what you said for the 2 timing marks. Are they both underneath the top cover?


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Gilb666
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by Gilb666 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:35 am

Went back up to the garage that fitted the hall sender and did the timing.
Apparently the dizzy its self was seized so he timed it by changing the position of a metal ring thingy that sits over the hall sender in relation to the shaft that holds the rotor. Before and after positions were marked, and when i found it it out of alignment to either of these by about 90 degrees. I moved it back, tried both positions but still no joy. I've also noticed that the circlip that's supposed to lock these parts together doesn't seem to be doing so. Can't see anything that would suggest an position for it to go in, it just seems ever so slightly to big to fit snugly.


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mark1gls
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by mark1gls » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:04 pm

To free up the dissy, clean out as much dirt as possible, spray a little Plusgas around the base, leave it for at least an hour then get some mole grips to hold the shaft of the dissy and give it a wiggle left and right till it comes lose.
I would of thought the garage would of loosened the dissy instead of messing with the internals to get the timing right???


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DT1
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by DT1 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:29 pm

Gilb666 wrote:I've got the new cap and arm on, but no joy. Struggling with how to get the upper cam belt cover off at the moment. I've got both top nuts off but it's still held by something i can't find. I've got the metal version.
The three holes at the bottom...there is a bolt in the far left hole http://www.classic-vw.co.uk/mk1-golf-gt ... 1064-p.asp.



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Gilb666
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by Gilb666 » Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:02 pm

I see the hole at the left, but it's got a metal /rubber coin in there with a round hole in the middle. Does it just prize out? I couldn't see any way I could make it turn.

Mark, i'm unsure where the dizzy turn point is to apply the plusgas. I can see what looks to be a join at the bottom of the 'head', a couple of mm before it narrows down to the shaft. There are mole grip marks on the head part as well as at the very bottom below the retaining bracket, but i can't see anything other than this that looks like a join.
I did remove the bracket to see if i could lift the whole thing out to work on it with a better view, but after removing the bracket i couldn't lift it out.

Hang on, i might be being daft here - After just re-reading your message, was i supposed to put the plusgas around the part where the dizzy enters the block?


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mark1gls
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by mark1gls » Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:36 pm

Top cambelt cover need a Allen key to undo the round washer type fixing near the 3 holes on the picture in the link.
Yes loosen the clamp and spray the Plusgas between the engine block and dissy.

Don’t pull the dissy out of the engine block you just want to free it up so it turns.
Mark a line where the dissy is now, there is a little cut out on the engine block where you can mark the dissy shaft so if it all goes wrong you can put it back to how it is now.


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Gilb666
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by Gilb666 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:59 pm

Plusgas'd first thing this morning and gave it a good couple of hours, it's still not budging.

There is some good news however, got the timing cover off, found the mark on the gear, the TDC marker in the gearbox and the one in the dizzy

If i line up the gearbox one, the cam gear is out by a couple of degrees - something like half a tooth. The dizzy seems out by about the same amount. removing the circlip didn't allow me to move the rotor shaft to line it back up, but i didn't want to try and force it.

Put the cap back on though, and it did fire up. Cut out again almost straight away, but i feel i'm getting closer. (I guess this probably means i had the cap on backwards before. I just re-plugged the leads in in the same order they came out of the other cap, so next job is to look up what order they should be in)

I checked the Haynes about alignment of the metal ring that the garage apparently used to time it, but it barely got a mention. Nothing i could see about aligning it after the hall sender removal part, so not sure if this will be having an effect or not?


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Gilb666
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by Gilb666 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:33 pm

Fixed (hopefully!)

For anyone else reading this in the same situation, the problem was with the metal ring position. The reason Haynes doesn't mention the position is that there's a pin to align this to the rotor shaft. I wasn't able to track down what happened to the original, but made another from a small spring pin cut down low enough that the rotor would fit. Car now starts, and i've been able to drive it around the block.

Still need to unseize the dizzy so i can time it, as i'm sure it's a bit out, but it seems to be running as well as it did before all this started now!


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PeteGLi
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by PeteGLi » Mon Oct 23, 2017 12:04 pm

When you say the dizzy is seized, I take it you mean that the body of the dizzy is seized in the engine block, so that you cannot twist the whole thing by hand or even remove it? Loosen the holding clamp bolt and then tap round the body of the dizzy close to the engine block, gently with a rubber hammer. There should be a circular paper gasket between the dizzy and the block, which should help prevent it sticking in the future.



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Gilb666
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Re: GTX not starting

Post by Gilb666 » Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:17 pm

Thanks Pete, that's an idea i'd not come across


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